(they could date girls/guys) but that would be a lie…i understand that some people do become gay because things that maybe happened during there childhood…but i think that people can not wake up one day and say I WANT TO BE GAY…most dont have a choice so they either come out..or they live a lie..i dont think it should matter if someone is gay or not as long as they are happy..

people are born the way there born….

32% of the population is born blue-eyed

25% of the population is born with attached earlobes

15% of the population is born left-handed

4% of the population is born with red hair

3% of the population is born gay *

You appear to be very dismissive of those who believe that people can be born gay. I will certainly agree that I have witnessed first hand people engage in homosexual relationships for reasons other than because they believed they were born gay and that is what a lot of these former self-loathing testimonies sound like….I fail to see the “proof” in this…….

Thanks for your response. My response to some of your comments…

There is also scientific evidence to support that blacks are inferior to whites–according to Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray, authors of the book The Bell Curve.

While scientific studies do have merit, if the evidence exists that their findings could be not as accurate as expected, the validity of that study MUST come into question.

Most definitely. And their are plenty more scientists whose work has been used to make similar claims about Blacks (e.g. Rushton & Jensen). There will always be scientific evidence on both sides of any issue. Hardly ever will you find ALL the evidence in ONE direction. However, in this case most of the genetic and social scientific evidence AND personal accounts of gays seems to point to at least SOME genetic contribution to homosexuality.

While you and others have gone to great lengths to prove that your opinion is valid, the challenge posed here was to prove that the accounts of the individuals that I mentioned were false.

That is an impossible challenge. Your original question of how it can be that a person is born gay when there is factual evidence to the contrary is much more answerable. Nobody can prove their personal accounts to be false without having in-depth knowledge of the individuals and their lives. At the same time their accounts do not make it true. Just as you say you must take the word of those who have become straight, you must also take the word of many more gays who say they have no choice in their sexual orientation. The accounts of the former do not negate the latter.

weather or not these individuals have had a religious experience or not that ultimately helped them in their journey should not of concern here. What is known (according to their accounts) is that once they were homosexual and now they are not, and unfortunately for many on this thread if something does not “fit” your view of the world, you quickly denounce it without proving the contrary.

Im not sure what you think my “view of the world is” (maybe you werent referring to me personally?) but I think I was clear in spelling out how I think it is possible for a person to be born gay OR to switch to being straight. You will have to take my word that I am not and ideologue who is intractable in my beliefs. Im always open to being proven wrong.

Having been raised Baptist and forced to go to church and sunday school for the first 18 years of my life (I come from very religious, very fundamentalist parents) I’ve been through that book backwards and forwards. It also says ist’s a sin to eat a cheeseburger or wear mix-blend fabrics (so, no more McDonalds or cotton-polyester blends). I explained that to my mom once, and it actually shut her up for a while. It even says some of that in the same book people use to support discrimination against gay people. That much they take literally and apply to other people. So, it strikes me as kinda funny if someone wants to apply historical and cultural context to the rest of it.

Anyway, it’s been used to justify slavery and black inferiority at least as much as Nazi science.

What I haven’t heard addressed yet are the personal stories I mentioned in the comment I posted over on my blog about people for whom “reparative therapy” did’t work. They can’t be proven wrong any more than the one’s Duane linked to in this post.

At the very least they ought to suggest that there are some people who can “change their sexual orientation” or at least shift the focus of it, and there are some who can’t. Like I said in that post, some religious organizations and instutitions have already recognized as much.

At best, what we have her is a draw.

Just in case you are wondering, no I do not filter out any comments–unless they contain inappropriate language or just spam.

What you have stated before about the Bible is taken out of context. If you are really interested in what the Bible says, please read the WHOLE scriptures in order to get a clearer meaining. Somehow though I think that you have already decided on what you believe. So…to discuss this with you any longer would be a moot point.

Will try to answer some questions.

There may well be a FEW people who are able to “change” from being gay. I would not assert definatively that these people are lying or that it is absolutely impossible.

But, I know many, many people who live as gays, who claim that life IS much tougher when you are gay. I think that if these people could change – they would.

They are people who otherwise are good, upstanding people; good jobs, good neighbors, nice friends, etc. All that is “wrong” with them is that they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex.

There has been scientific evidence showing that the brains of gay men are physiologically different than the brains of straight men. Don’t have the research in front of me – but I could look it up.

Also – I honestly do not know what is so morally wrong with having sex with another adult, consenting partner. I know it says in the Bible you’re not supposed to …but then, the Bible says you aren’t supposed to eat pork, shellfish, and work on the Sabbath, too………

Thanks for your comments.

There is also scientific evidence to support that blacks are inferior to whites–according to Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray, authors of the book The Bell Curve.

While scientific studies do have merit, if the evidence exists that their findings could be not as accurate as expected, the validity of that study MUST come into question.

While you and others have gone to great lengths to prove that your opinion is valid, the challenge posed here was to prove that the accounts of the individuals that I mentioned were false. As I have mentioned numerous times here already, just as I am to take the word of a homosexual that he or she are happy and content with their sexual choices, in the spirit of being fair-minded I must also take the word of those who claim to have once been homosexual but are now heterosexual and happy UNLESS THEIR ACCOUNTS CAN BE PROVEN AS FALSE OR INACCURATE. And one cannot do this unless these particular subjects have been thoroughly inspected.

weather or not these individuals have had a religious experience or not that ultimately helped them in their journey should not of concern here. What is known (according to their accounts) is that once they were homosexual and now they are not, and unfortunately for many on this thread if something does not “fit” your view of the world, you quickly denounce it without proving the contrary.

Kinda ironic, isn’t it?

====

For now, I am done with commenting on this issue. I wish to thank everybody who took part and kept it civilized.

First, I think your question assumes that there are gay/straight categories that people fall neatly into. I think that it’s likely to be more of a continuum as one of the previous posters mentioned (there is research to support this as well). So if there is a continuum then it is most likely those towards the middle of that continuum who “become straight” rather than those at the extremes.

Secondly, I don’t think you can really equate the concept being black with being gay in this case. Race, in the way I believe you were referring to it, is a stricly biological feature (how black as person’s skin is) whereas sexual orientation is a behavior. Both are influenced by genetics but sexual orientation also has a heavy environmental component to it whereas race has next to none. While someone my have genetic traits for “gayness” it may or may not be behaviorally expressed due to the interaction with the environment. Those who became straight may have been those who were born gay and for whatever reason, the environment in which they were in “suppressed” the gentic inclination (which may not have been that strong to begin with depending on the individual).

It is clear to me that people “can” be born gay. The fact that two boys raised in the same household can have two very different sexual orientations is strong evidence for genetic influence in my book. I’ve seen this in two of my friends and one of your posters gives personal testimony to it. There is also scientic evidence for it.

Bottom line for me is even if it is possible for a gay person to become straight, it is unethical and franky ridiculous to suggest that gays should become straight like the rest of us (yes I am straight, and Duane, Im not saying that this is what you were saying). This is one of the reasons why both the American Psychological and American Psychiatric Assoications don’t support such treatments. Being gay is not a disease. Disease implies some kind of impairment or dysfunction. The only impairment gays might suffer are social in nature as a result of stigma and discrimination.

I’m not going to even touch the religious arguments on this…

I truly feel sorry for the suffering of people at the fringe of humanity, but I do not think that militancy, by any constituency, over this issue will achieve the desired results. The desired result is to let everyone personally decide how they will respond to divine guidance (see: Bible).

Finally, if something is wrong at least be honest enough to say: “what I am doing is wrong. But I do not care. However I will not insist that anyone else support me in what I am doing”

http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm

Actually, this whole discussion started out as an opinion against the belief that being gay is like being black.

Being gay is like being black for me, as a gay black man. It’s like Audre Lorde called herself a “a black feminist lesbian mother poet” because she acknowledged that it is impossible to seperate the many diverse aspects of who she is as a person. I am not gay one day and then black the next, or gay in one discussion, black in another, and black/male in the next. Just like you are not simply black, Duane, and must realize that you speak not exactly from a black perspective, not exactly from a black male perspective, but a black/straight/male perspective. I recommend looking up Lorde and also bell hooks for enlightening discussions of how (straight) black males have at tendency to claim ownership of the black cause, just like white, middle-class straight females co-opt women’s movements.

It’s not so much a matter of whether “being gay is like being black.” Being black and gay is like being. . .well, black and gay, just like being white and gay is not the same as being black and gay or asian and lesbian, or black, straight and female. Identity and discrimination are very complicated, and each of us experiences them a little bit differently.

No offenses meant or taken Duane. All in the name of a good discussion.

“because of the fallen nature of man are born into sin and each of us have innate weaknesses or tendencies”

Now of course some of you are going to say that you are not Christian. (Me either, Muslim) Some of you are going to say that you don’t believe in God. Then my dear friends continue being homosexual and we will see how the chips fall at that end of time. But just like I bring attention to my religion (which isn’t popular in America these days) I must reap the consequences of that. If you hold hands with your mate in public or show up at PTA then just be prepared to deal with the consequences. Please no personal attacks just my opinion.

So, without trying to prove that anyone was lying in his/her testimonial on these websites, I would like to question the implicit assumption underneath all of this–that being gay is bad, and should be treated as a disorder that should be cured.

Actually, this whole discussion started out as an opinion against the belief that being gay is like being black. This led to the main question of this post “Can a person be born gay?”. Weather or not homosexuality is wrong or not is up to you. Don’t think that I am going to rake you over the fires of hell for not believing as I believe. You, like I have opinions and beliefs. The whole purpose of this forum was to challange those beliefs–not disrespect anybody.

As far as the scientific studies go, there was also a study done that made the point that blacks were inferior to whites. Should we then refer to that simply because it is a “independent” study?

No, I prefer to hear from real people and their experiences. If you believe that you have found happiness in your life choices, then all I can do is take you at your word. I also have to do the same for individuals who also claim that they found happiness by completely leaving that lifestyle.

Matt, you sound like a good guy (not that I thought anything differently). Thanks for sharing your point of view. Hopefully this will not be the last time our paths will meet.

I’ve got to take care of some more pressing matters right now, so I may not return to this particular post until later this evening.

I think there are lots of people who, no matter what they believe about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, can agree that people shouldn’t be discriminated against. At the end of the day, people can believe what they want as far as I’m concerned. I care more about how they treat me and my family. I want my family to have the same rights and protections as anyone else, like my brother’s family or my sister’s family. Period.

Anything less than that is what I call discrimination. It’s not just having separate drinking fountains or having to sit in the back of the bus (among other things). And people who advocate for discrimination against me and my family are the people I call bigots.

For those of you interested in the opinion of those who know a bit more than myself about all this, here is a link to the American Psychologic Association’s page on this topic.