The Black Informant | African American Commentary, News and Community Building

That is a BEAUTIFUL song.

i’m bout to catch this nap, but later on, i’ma play devil’s advocate on this one. (mostly for the challenge.) but while i work on that, i can say this:

one pro-choice argument would have to do with the difference between legal and moral. that is, everything that is immoral is not illegal, and vice-versa. there are dozens of issues that we can take a moral position on that don’t necessarily justify a legal prohibition. (this is, obviously, making a distinction between “pro choice” and “pro abortion.”) for example, most would say fornication is biblically immoral, but it’s not illegal. on the other hand, driving too fast is illegal, but probably closer to amoral. abortion as a function of legal choice exists between those poles on the moral/legal continuum. i would say it’s biblically immoral, but it’s not illegal, which puts the onus of the decision on the actor. state don’t exist to mandate moral judgments, state sets laws to protect people from each other.

i think i’ve figured out my argument. i’ll try to get back to you on this one. should be fun.

Avery, how would slavery fit in with your ( I note that you’re playing Devil’s Advocate – so I’m not sure if it’s really your arguement) arguement? That too was legal once.

In keeping with Richard’s point, it is as much of an injustice as slavery. It’s the legally justifiable killing of innocents that just happens to be aimed specifically at the black community. Or at least poor black communities, to be specific. while I wouldn’t force a woman to do one over the other, I think the best we can do is provide support and options for women willing to give birth so that these lives can be saved. Legislating abortion away would be as immoral as the lies and falsehoods perpetrated to convince the government to legalize it in the first place. We need to start with us. we need to let women know that if they can’t do it on their own, they will have help from us to do it right. I think churches are the best place to start this kind of idea off. A community outreach of sorts.

STRONG post, Duane.
STRONG.

“I think the best we can do is provide support and options for women willing to give birth so that these lives can be saved.”

If you really care go out tomorrow to the local child service agency and apply to become a foster parent or begin the adoption process for one of the many displaced children that are avaialble now.

This is the ONLY thing that really matters that you can do for these children.

I am sick and tired of hearing folk voice their “moral” arguements condemning abortion yet they know in their heart they are NOT willing to make the necessary sacafices for any of these children in need.

If you do not have a foster child or two already living in your home than it is time to open up your eyes and be prepared to surrender the moral high-ground.

There is no given that a child not wanted by his/her mother will end up being adopted, more than likely they will not.
That children will end up spending it entire childhood as a ward of the state. Most of them do NOT grow into productive adults.

There is an unwritten rule that “children of the state” are not allowed any benefit that the average middle-class family can not afford. Any program that you can come up with that is truly helpful will cost a great deal of $$$$ and will make many of the hardworking “moral” folks that raise and take care of their children angry that their children are not allowed the same type of TAXPAYER funded “help”.
I find it so ironic that it is the religious folks that talk about adoption and then go right ahead and encrouage their own pregnent teen daughters to just “give away” their own flesh and blood because it is a burden and embassessment to the “family” ???????????

How moral is that?

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)

To be a good Christian one MUST be pragmatic about God and religion. It is prefectly OK to be a true believer in God and also accept that Scripture is the work of man that has been written and re-written many times to suit what the writers wanted the reader to believe when they wrote it.

Part and parcel of being good Christian maintaining an open mind and the ability to experience mental and SPRITUAL growth.

Duane, for the sake of argument I can use srcipture to justify many, many, negative actions and thoughts. The problem is scripture is open to broad interptation. A man with a heart full of anger can read the same scripture as a man full of joy and come away with two opposite meanings. Who is right and who is wrong?

Many so called Christains have used Scripture as the justifiction for slavery and the continued oppression of black people in the USA. Preist used to bless slave ships to ensure the safe transport of cargo and GOLD! Our current president claims that his actions are justified in Christian scripture, need I say more!

If you really care go out tomorrow to the local child service agency and apply to become a foster parent or begin the adoption process for one of the many displaced children that are avaialble now.

I’ll do you three better. If I really practiced what I preached, I would A. Not have chosen to abort when my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. B. Take care of the kids I already have. C. Mentor kids that are not mine.

Done it all.

I am sick and tired of hearing folk voice their “moral” arguements condemning abortion yet they know in their heart they are NOT willing to make the necessary sacafices for any of these children in need.

What you totally miss with this statement here is that those that do tend to be vocal against abortion (for the sake of argument, let’s just use the Christian community) have done more helping unwanted kids both here and abroad for centuries than any government.

Let me just say this before I continue. I hope for your sake that you have met the moral standard you have defined here (taking care of foster kids). Regardless of your take on abortion, you have no moral standing here if you have not met the requirement you have set here. To suggest such a standard means that you have met it yourself. In other words, you are the hypocrite here.

To be a good Christian one MUST be pragmatic about God and religion. It is prefectly OK to be a true believer in God and also accept that Scripture is the work of man that has been written and re-written many times to suit what the writers wanted the reader to believe when they wrote it.

To suggest what you are saying here is to refute 2 Timothy 3:16 in the first place.

“How do you justify your pro-choice views SCRIPTURALLY?”

alright. long day at the gig, but let’s go.

[da]
i think the first point to make is that there’s nothing in the bible that’s explicitly pro-choice in the modern sense, but there’s also nothing in the bible that’s explicitly anti-abortion. not in the sense that we mean it today, at least.

using the same scriptures that duane posted, i think the understood argument against abortion is that personhood is granted at conception, therefore abortion is wrong. (if this is not the case, then school me.) however, looking especially at the two old testament scriptures, it’s not clear that these suggest that personhood/ god-breathed life begins at conception. if anything, what these scriptures indicate is that a person’s physical existence is one stage in his existence. witness that in the verse from jeremiah, god tells the prophet: ‘before i formed you in the womb, i knew you.’ clearly, that can’t prove anything about life beginning at conception. similarly, while david’s ruminations on the way god created him in the womb are stirring, there’s nothing there that would really address abortion as such. to say that god knew a person when he was in the womb is a theological statement, not a biological one. same thing would apply to a prophecy over a specific individual. while there are general principles to be extracted, prophecies to a specific individual apply to that individual. notice, nobody’s arguing that going out and marrying a ho is normative, even though god explicitly told hosea to do so. it says what it says, but that’s all it says.

so to draw a parallel, it’s the same thing, but coming from a different direction, as the people who look in revelation and try to extrapolate that jesus was black (as in american black) because of the verses about the hair like wool and bronze skin and all that. a careful (or even semi-literate) reading of those verses will tell you that that’s not even close to what those verses are actually talkin about, but some people will argue that that’s what they say, because that’s what they want them to say. same thing here. these verses here don’t prove anything about life beginning at conception, which is the crux of any biblical argument against abortion.

long story short, the bible is explicit on many things. abortion’s not one of them. there are verses that people can take to be anti-abortion, but that all depends on the reasoning behind that perception. reading words into the bible for a cause you support is no different than somebody else reading words in for a cause they support.
[/da]

richard, i’d argue that slavery as practiced in the bible was a good deal different from chattel slavery as it was practiced in the united states. while it’s true that the bible was used as justification for slavery, i think there’s plenty of evidence to go against a pro-slavery reading.

but there’s also nothing in the bible that’s explicitly anti-abortion. not in the sense that we mean it today, at least.

long story short, the bible is explicit on many things. abortion’s not one of them.

There is also nothing in the Bible that says I cannot look at adult films. However, it is very clear about lust.

I provided several scriptures already that are specific about how God acknowledges life IN THE WOMB.

to say that god knew a person when he was in the womb is a theological statement, not a biological one.

When it is scientifically proven that a unborn child from day one shows evidence of survival, growth and later a simple form of intelligence, is that theological or biological?

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)

Notice that it didn’t say “some Scripture” but “All Scripture”.

Along “Give it a Rest’s” point… You have refuted this yourself… When we had the discussion before about several scriptures in the old testament that are never followed in today’s time (slavery, eating habits, punishments)… I’m sure there are several in the new testament as well. Old testament is considered scripture too right or am I wrong?

When we had the discussion before about several scriptures in the old testament that are never followed in today’s time (slavery, eating habits, punishments)… I’m sure there are several in the new testament as well. Old testament is considered scripture too right or am I wrong?

Couple of things:

#I am using scripture from both Old and New Testament.
#One more time (you and anyone else)

“How do you justify your pro-choice views SCRIPTURALLY?”

This question and this post is targeted towards those who profess to be a Christian. If this is you, all I am asking is a very simple question. If not, why are you responding?

If not, why are you responding?

Because I have some free time… And the fact that based on past conversations you do not even follow the scripture (2 Timothy 3:16) that you sited as the basis of your question. I thought that was kinda important.

When we had the discussion before about several scriptures in the old testament that are never followed in today’s time (slavery, eating habits, punishments)

Broke all of that down to you biblically–several times.

And the fact that based on past conversations you do not even follow the scripture (2 Timothy 3:16)

Besides you baseless accusation here and your admission of boredom, do you profess to be a Christian? Let’s start with that one.

Two things…

1. Why does a woman’s right to do what she wants with her body always trump an unborn baby’s right to enter into this world?

*This is directed toward the pro-abortion Christians.

2. I don’t understand the Christian that says “Personally, I’m against abortion but I don’t feel there should be a law banning it”.

To me, that’s just the same as someone saying, “Personally, I’m against bank robbery but I don’t feel there should be a law banning it.”

Duane, that song reminds me of “Sorry Child” by J.R. on Cross Movement Records. You oughta check it out.

guess i couldn’t quite pull it off.

anyway, this is a question i’ve wondered about myself, particularly as it pertains to a certain name-brand reverend-slash-politician, whose stance did a public reversal of field. in his first statement, he came out as a minister. i was curious to see how, in his alternate view, he justified abortion as a minister. he’s never really done so.

Broke all of that down to you biblically–several times.

Several times is a stretch… And since you keep repeating that line, here is your “breakdown”:

Enter Jesus. His main role was to become a fulfillment of the law. In other words, he himself became the one sacrifice needed for all of mankind. So no longer did we have to go through all the tedious steps to receive forgiveness. Nevertheless, the spirit of the Law which had no tolerance for sin or defilement was and is still kept intact. So when you read about Menstruating women or handicapped folks not being welcomed into the temple, please keep in mind that such laws were needed at the time if someone was to even come close to the very presence of God. There is a passage in the Old Testament that talks about how if false prophets (prophet$) are to be stoned to death. There is another one that suggests the same fate of children who are caught lying to their parents. God still hates these things, but thanks to His grace (as described in Romans 6 and throughout the New Testament, we are given another chance to get it right.

Why can’t this logic be applied to any situation? And even you say that much of the Old Testament is the “spirit of the law”. Which to me violates (2 Timothy 3:16) since the whole book of Leviticus can be thrown out. And I could come up with several scriptures in the New Testament that I guarantee you don’t follow.

Besides you baseless accusation here and your admission of boredom, do you profess to be a Christian? Let’s start with that one.

Free time does not equal boredom and apparently I’m just as Christian as you unless you are a fundamentalist… I’ll follow what makes sense and ignore the rest.

Nevertheless, the spirit of the Law which had no tolerance for sin or defilement was and is still kept intact.

Read that several times.

Free time does not equal boredom and apparently I’m just as Christian as you unless you are a fundamentalist

Just answer the question directly.

I’ll follow what makes sense and ignore the rest.

Nevermind. There’s the answer.

Abortion and Christianity don’t mix. There’s no way to defend killing unborn CHILDREN, as a bible-believing Christian. I don’t know why folks even try.

The one thing that Jeremiah 1:5 DOES declare is that God considers us “knowable” in our unborn state. We’re not just “blobs of tissue”, as some would have us to believe.

Some of us really like the idea of “Christ”. We like that He was a really good guy, and we want to be among His followers. But when it comes to lordship and submission to Him and His agenda/principles, we ALL struggle. But I’d rather just admit that, than try to make sense out of that which makes no sense. Some things are quite obvious.

Tearing a baby apart in the womb, and then suctioning out the pieces is barbaric, inhumane and un-Christlike. It’s murder. Cold blooded. There is no way around it, as a logical, sane individual (saint or ain’t). Yes, there are other things that are barbaric, inhumane and un-Christlike. So?
Abortion is still evil.

By this argument, supporting the war effort is incompatible with christianity.

Are you suggesting that those that were fighting against our soldiers were just innocent individuals just minding their business? Better question. Are you going to answer the original question?

Duane I’m glad you put this back up. I never got around to responding to some of your other guests ideas and this post is of paramount importance.

As a man of Christ, who struggles daily to meet HIS expectations yet fail regularly this post is close to my heart. As a youngster women always felt comfortable to bring up a lot of information with me. More than a few asked for my counsel when they discovered pregnancies.

At this point in my life I was far more liberal, being in high school myself and still figuring out the world around me. I knew abortion was wrong with God, but the law of the land isn’t always God’s. I counselled young women on what they had options to do, and the location of abortions clinics, and despite doing these things for the good of the young girl in question, in my heart I know I will be judged for advocating that a woman may kill her child. I was no professional and these were girls I knew that came to me for help, trusting that I would give them some guidance. I’m proud that I didn’t advocate abortion all fo the time, or with every girl that asked me. I’m also glad that certain children are in school now in part because I leant a helping hand, a shoulder to cry on, and a source of strength to draw on. I never made any of these decisions personally, none of them were my lovers, and what I did was minimal in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes the most important thinsg we can do is support our friends in their time of crisis. In my mind that is a part of what Christ calls us to do in ministering to our brothers and sisters. That we provide support so that the right decisions can be made, and God willing, lives may be saved.

got to bounce but I will be back tomorrow

LeGioN
aka
Nic